Israel vs the rest-- whose at fault?

THIS is a post by Mike Kradjis that was sent to the GLW LIst in response to such questions of 'blame". I have reformatted it:

"You've mentioned Israel's aggression and neglected to mention any aggression from the other side, what about the rockets, would you let Australia have rockets rained upon it and not defend us. Yet in this instance it appears that they (muslim terrorists, they are not freedom fighters) started the conflict, and that those representing Muslims are the only side determined to wipe the opposition off the map. I believe that Israel, and most Lebanese, and some Palestinians just want to live peacefully with their neighbours, yet they can't do this when groups like Hamas and Hezbollah have such extreme agendas and want to speak on behalf of the nations they come from."

:Trouble is, this is not only complete nonsense from start to finish, but contradicts reams of material that has been posted to this list already. What is it with people on this list, where they simply ignore everything that has been written for weeks, make no attempt whatsoever to try to disprove it with counter-facts, counter-arguments based on oher facts etc, but merely come up with the same crap weeks later.

This is a discussion list. My understanding of the word "discussion" is that it is a two-way process, whereby I put forward some views based on facts as I understand them, and then someone else responds, puts forward a different arguments, based on a different interpretation of those facts, or disproving those facts, or introducing other facts etc. There appear to be quite a few posters here who have obviously grown up with a different definiti on of the word "discussion."

Therefore, the only way I can think of dealing with this is by reposting a post I posted weeks ago also in response to someone who claimed this was all about poor little israel "defending itself" in "response" to others etc. You tell me what's wrong with it kra fern. Then there's another post I sent more recently I've also reposted below.

The major element of constant disinformation in the western (especially the shitty Australian) media, is that the naked genocidal Israeli aggression against the people of Gaza and Lebanon is some kind of "response" to acts by the oppressed and brutalised themselves, including from various "critical" voices who merely add the word "disproportionate" the the slimy word "response" in order to give themselves glossy "liberal" (?) or "impartial" veneer?

My original message was a CNN poll that asked "do you think the Israeli military response inside Lebanon is justified?", to which I added a note "Yeh, I just love how even in a "poll" we are told it is a "response". So we are talking about Lebanon. Then Kisan writes back: "Exactly how is it funny to call it a "response" when 1000+ rockets have come in and killed numerous Israelis?"

No Kisan, Hizbullah in Lebanon had not fired even one rocket into Israel (ie, had in response to israel's aggression, as Lebanon has a right to self-defence). The Orwellian reference to Israel's "response" is based on the idea that Israel's decision to massacre hundreds of Lebanese civilians in a few days, civilians in apartment blocks, airports, on streets, in their houses in the village, in cars, even in cars full of villagers escaping the village as instructed by Israel before blowing up the village, and then the fleeing cars, and pretty much anywhere civilians happen to be walking, sitting, sleeping etc, that all this is a "response" to Hizbullah's minor action against an Israeli military target, ie the capture of two Israeli soldiers just across the border. And since we are talking about "responses", then why isn't Hizbullah's action in capturing the troops also a response, since the aim was to do a prisoner exchange, for Lebanese prisoners in Israeli jails, that Israel has been illegally holding since the time of its illegal occupation of Lebanon, in some cases for decades?

In any case, if slaughtering hundreds of civilians is a "response" to a military action against a military target, then I'll let you figure out the consequences of that Kisan. Given for example that Israel has been illegally occupying West Bank, Gaza, E. Jerusalem, and Golan Heights for 39 years, and had occupied southern Lebanon for 22 years, and has murdered thousands upon thousands of people in those occupied regions over these decades, then based on your same notion of "response" or "self-defence", then surely these Palestinians and Lebanese over all this time have had the same right to "respond", indeed a far bigger right, and therefore to bomb Israeli civilians with the most advanced weaponry, to bomb the Israeli parliament, to bomb the homes and offices of Israeli politicians, the bomb apartment blocks, airports, villages, simply to bomb christ out of the whole of Israel until the terrorists, ie the Israeli regime, are destroyed, is that right Kisan, would you also recognise this as a "response"?

But anyway, since the very idea is so ridiculous, let's move onto Gaza, because it is from Palestinians in Gaza, not from Lebanon, that "1000+ rockets have come in" and, according to Kisan, "killed numerous Israelis." So let's say that Kisan is just plain wrong about Lebanon, but there is a case that Israel's current genocidal assault on Gaza is a "response" to the missiles, right?

(Oh, and of course again, the wholesale massacre of the civilian population in Gaza is also a "response" to the Palestinian military action of capturing one Israeli soldier, ie a military target, to attempt to exchange him for hundreds of Palestinian women and children that have been kidnapped by the Israeli terrorist army (out of the current 9000 Palestinians held by Israel). And never mind that Kisan, like most of the world, probably doesn't even know that the very day before, Israeli state-terrorist troops invaded Gaza and kidnapped two Palestinian civilians? Do you even know their freakin names like the whole world knows the name of the Israeli bloke? But let's be kind to Kisan and stick to the missiles).

What's the reality? Since Israel "withdrew" from Gaza, and before the recent blow-up, Israel has fired 7,000 to 9,000 heavy artillery shells into Gaza, killing at least 144 Palestinians, often killed by helicopter gunships, according to a list compiled by the Israeli human rights group B'tselem. 25 percent of all those killed were minors. During the same period, Palestinians, "in response" let's say to use Kisan's language more appropriately, fired the 1000 crude Kassam missiles he talks about, which have caused damage, but have killed exactly no Israelis. Luckily, I might add, as I don't defend this kind of action by fringe groups of Palestinians, but their actions with these crude missiles arise from the absolute desperation of living in the open air prison of Gaza and constantly being blown to pieces by helicopter gunships launched by the most powerful state in the region, on top of 39 years of ongoing brutal and illegal occupation, which would make virtually any action by the Palestinians arguably a "response."

And so, since even before the latest escalation, and even ignoring the occupation, it can be established that both on the basis of the number of attacks, and the gigantic difference in the numbers killed (144 to 0), that it was Israel that has been the aggressor hands down, do you still think Israel's current monstrous aggression in Gaza, which apart from stepped up massacre of innocents everywhere in the strip also features destroying main power plant and its water system, leaving tens of thousands of Gaza families without access to food, water and medical care, is merely a "response" to the 1000 clumsy kassams that killed no-one, even if you were to ignore the 7-9000 Israeli heavy shells?

For the record, what happened in Gaza prior to the beginning of Israel's major genocidal attack in recent weeks? here's a good summary:
  • On June 8, the Israeli army assassinated the recently appointed Palestinian head of the security forces of the Interior Ministry, Jamal Abu Samhadana, and three others.
  • On June 9, Israeli shells killed seven members of the same family picnicking on Beit Lahiya beach. Some 32 others were wounded, including 13 children.
  • On June 13, an Israeli plane fired a missile into a busy Gaza City street,killing 11 people, including two children and two medics.
  • On June 20, the Israeli army killed three Palestinian children and injured 15 others in Gaza with a missile attack.
  • On June 21, the Israelis killed a 35-year old pregnant woman, her brother, and injured 11 others, including 6 children.
  • Then came the Israeli capture of two Palestinians on June 24, followed by the Palestinian capture of the Israeli soldier and the killing of the two othersoldiers.
  • After the beach deaths, Hamas broke an 18-month ceasefire and joined other militant groups in firing Kassam rockets into Israel.
Unfortunately I can't help getting the feeling that the same view as in the capitalist media - that Muslim or Arab lives are on average worth approximately one hundredth, if that, of each Christian or Jewish life, is at least unconsciously behind these claims of "response". At least that would appear the explanation based on the facts I've presented above, which merely come from other posts which have been on this list. If I am wrong, and the facts presented are wrong, then please let me know kra fern.

SEE ALSO:Hizbullah's attacks stem from Israeli incursions into Lebanon By Anders Strindberg

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